Okay, so we're going to now turn to New Covenant Sanctification, talk about some more applicable things to us. There's nothing new that you're going to hear, but it's not tedious for me to say the same things to you again and again, but safe for you.

So we spent a great deal of time studying this book of Joel, laying foundations for understanding, and I want to just take a few minutes and discuss why this really matters to you and me, the Living Hope Church in 2025. We in this church age live under the salvation spiritual blessings of the New Covenant, which Jesus instituted in His blood at the cross, and now we enjoy every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus, it says in the book of Ephesians. 

So if we're going to understand how it is we are to live to be holy, we must understand which economy of God, which parameters, truly which covenant under which we live. This is where I find so much confusion in the church. Is the law of Moses our rule of life—the civil law, the moral law, the sacrificial law? I mean, we find all of these things being implemented in some faction of those who call themselves Christian today. The moral law, the whole civil law, all of the Old Testament laws of Exodus and Leviticus—there are people who call themselves Christians who are practicing all of these things today. 

A group of growing professing believers today believe the entire law of Moses is still in effect, including all the feasts and festivals, rules, laws, and restrictions. Think about this: we find in the Roman Catholic Church a mediating priesthood, an altar, a true and real sacrifice, and sacraments. We just, in our elder study the other day, Michael made this point, which I thought was really interesting—the sacraments of the Catholic Church are meant to maintain harmony in the church and with God under their self-proclaimed theocracy on Earth.

Digest that for just a minute. They have taken over the mediating priesthood, the altar, a true and real sacrifice, and they exercise sacraments in order that when you offend the church or offend God, you can go through a sacrament in order to come back into harmony with that community, that theocracy as the Catholic Church sees itself in the Vatican and the Pope and so forth on the Earth. And of course there are many denominations today who maintain the moral law as binding on the believer as a rule of life.

So do we at least in some form and fashion live under the old covenant law of Moses? Or is there a clean break, a line of demarcation between the old and the new, between Israel and the church? It’s vital that we understand the battle of the Christian life—the struggle to glorify God in all that we do and live a holy life that is a witness to this world. 

We must understand the battle, and there is a battle—the struggle is real if we're going to have victory in this life. God has made clear in his word why it is that we can now live a new life and how it is that He intends us to live this new life under the New Covenant in Christ. I wanted to just start reading in Romans 5:20 and read a few different verses here. 

In 5:20, Paul says, "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound, but where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death..." Now you all understand that, don't you? I mean, you can think about your old life in Adam before you were saved, and you can say sin reigned in me in Adam, in death. He says that he wants grace to abound so that just as sin reigned in death in Adam, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. This is the purpose. 

And in 6:1 he says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" In other words, we having died can no longer continue as we did in Adam. Look at Romans 7 at verse 5. He says, "For when we were in the flesh..." Again, consistent contrast between Adam and Christ all the way from Romans 5:12 through chapter 8. "When we were in the flesh," that’s in Adam, "this was our condition—the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." In Romans 8:1 it says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Look at this tremendous news: verse 2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh on account of sin. He condemned sin in the flesh that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Now Romans 12, verse 1, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, wholly acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service, and do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

Okay, four points on this outline: why we can live a new life in Christ, how God intends us to live a new life, life by the Spirit not by the letter, and Christ in you abiding in Him. 

Well, in our study of Joel, we found some very important new covenant prophecies, promises for the nation of Israel, including in Joel 2:28 and following, the pouring out of God’s Spirit in the last days. See this same promise in Ezekiel 36—a new heart, a new spirit, God’s Spirit poured out indwelling the believer permanently. These are new covenant promises made initially to the nation of Israel and fully and finally fulfilled in Israel, but we see in Hebrews 8 that the spiritual aspects of these promises are applied to the church. The author there quotes Jeremiah 31 in the New Covenant, applies it to the church, pronouncing the end of the law covenant of Moses at the cross as Jesus has made it obsolete and bringing in a better covenant built on better promises.

So we see that in these last days our life with and relationship to God has changed drastically. We now have abiding peace with God. Jesus is our peace. Not so in the old covenant, where the people of Israel lost and saved were in constant risk of judgment from God for disobedience. We spent a great deal of time studying those conditions. We now in Christ stand in grace. We have access to God; we can come boldly to the throne of grace. 

We no longer have a mediating priesthood or a sacrificial system but are priests individually, and we present our lives as sacrifices to God. There’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, no judgment. We have been made accepted in the beloved and transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the son of his love. We are in Christ, and every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies is ours in Christ. 

But please note and remember that our blessings in Christ are spiritual in nature. We do not have this promise of wealth and prosperity and so forth associated with the kingdom. And in addition, we find something very new and of utmost importance in this new covenant time: a foundational spiritual blessing in Christ for everyone who believes, and it was promised in Ezekiel 36, and that is what we call regeneration. 

Regeneration, the new creation in Christ—anyone who is in Christ is a new creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17. This is the reason why we can now live a new and holy life to bring glory to God and be a witness to this world. And we find the key to this in Romans chapters 5 to 8 as well as every book and letter of the New Testament. I’m constantly amazed as I study—you go to Peter, you go even to James, and you see this same sort of foundation for new and holy living is regeneration. 

So let’s look at Romans 5:18. We’ll kind of come up to where we began before. 5:18, "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men resulting in condemnation," speaking of Adam’s sin in the garden, "even so through one man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men resulting in justification of life." Now this is an interesting phrase; it literally says justification unto life—this is the imparting of divine life to us. 

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, and again, we can understand that. We can understand that men and Adam are sinners, that we were sinners, that we had something wrong on the inside, right? They were made sinners in Adam. So also by one man’s obedience, many will be made righteous. And then he quotes what we read before.

So Paul has ended his discussion of justification in 5:11 and now in 5:12 begins to lay the foundation for the understanding of sanctification by discussing the contrast between the man in Adam and the man in Christ—the profound transformation that happens at the point when a man places his faith in Jesus, and that is regeneration. The thrust of his argument is one man’s sin versus one man’s righteous act. 

It was the sin of Adam that brought physical and spiritual death to man, and this brought the presence or principle of indwelling sin to every man born in Adam. So in effect, as verse 19 says, every man was made a sinner in Adam—corrupt on the inside, dead in his spirit, controlled and dominated by indwelling sin. But in Christ, the one righteous act of Christ on the cross, we are made righteous. 

In other words, God deals with that indwelling sin and our relationship to it. He imparts to us spiritual life. He makes us partakers of the divine nature. He gives to us the mind of Christ. Verse 18 tells us that we are justified unto life. Spiritual life is imparted to us in Christ. Verse 21 tells us that the purpose of this is recreation, so that we might have grace reign and righteousness in our lives in the same way that sin reigned in Adam. 

So how does God regenerate us, transform us inwardly, give us a new heart and a new spirit? Paul explains this in chapter 6, at verse 2, we died to sin. Our death is the key to understanding the Christian life. We cannot continue in sin as we did in Adam because we have been so fundamentally transformed inwardly. 

And this inward change must be manifested on the outside in how we live. We were united to Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection. That’s what Paul goes on to say. "Do you not know?" You first must know. We were united to Jesus, placed into His death, burial, and resurrection unto life. We were raised to newness of life with Christ. We died. Sin did not die. Sin’s still there, amen? We died to sin. Indwelling sin is still there, but it no longer dominates and controls us because our relationship to it has changed. 

Look at verse 6. "Knowing this, knowing this, do you know this? That our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin—that’s this physical body controlled by indwelling sin—might be rendered powerless or done away with in order that we should no longer be slaves of sin, for he who has died has been freed from sin." The body—this physical body controlled by indwelling sin—so that we continually in Adam manifested sin out through our members, lying, lusting, stealing, cheating—this body of sin has been rendered powerless in our crucifixion with Christ so that we are no longer slaves to sin. Our death with Christ guarantees our life with Christ. 

We now live with Jesus, and He lives in us. So our death is the key to understanding why we can live a new life. Romans 7 tells us that we not only died to sin, but we also died to the law as a rule, as a way of living. Verse 5, Romans 7, "When we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death, but now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." 

We died to sin; we also died to the law. When we were in the flesh, in Adam, this was our condition: the sinful passions were aroused by the law. Now this is super simple to illustrate, as we talk about so many times. You can take Silas, a four-year-old little boy, and you can tell him, "Don’t whatever you want." Yesterday, Silas called my house, and he said, "Grandpa, don’t eat that last donut. That donut is for Silas." So Bobby took a marker and wrote "Silas" on top of the package with the last donut in it. 

You know what happened to me when I walked by that? I wanted to eat it! I didn’t even want that donut! It was hard. I mean, it’s been around for a couple of days, and I didn’t even want it. I had too much sugar. But as soon as I saw Silas written on the front, and this is Silas’s donut, I thought, "Mm, I want that donut." This is how the law works with the sin in us to arouse these passions and produce this sin in our members. 

But now we, we in Christ, have been delivered from the law. You see the purpose word: "so that we should serve how? In the newness of the Spirit, by the power of the Holy Spirit, not in the oldness of the letter." So what law did we die to? What law are we no longer living by? What law have we been released from? 

Paul gives you an example in the next verse: "Thou shalt not covet." That is his example of what law he’s talking about. The law of Moses in its entirety has been made obsolete as our way or rule of life, as the defining element of our relationship with God. And this because God has done a much greater work. This is the key to understanding this. It’s not that we’re antinomian against the law. It’s not that the law is bad. The law is good. The point is the law can’t produce holiness in my life. 

And in the new covenant, God has made a much better way. He’s done a greater work for us to be holy, to live for him, to manifest love—self-sacrificial agape love toward God and man. We find that in Romans 8 at verse 1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." For what the law could not do—in that it was weak through the flesh—see, the law couldn’t do it because what did the law do? It aroused those sinful passions in me. It was weak through the flesh. 

What it couldn’t do—produce righteousness, holiness in my life—God did! He did this! How did He do it? He sent His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh on account of sin. He condemned sin in the flesh. He defeated indwelling sin, where it lives—in the flesh. He did this so that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 

And we know that the righteous requirement of the law is love, Romans 13. How is that fulfilled in us? By the Spirit! We live by the Spirit. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 

My brothers and sisters, how much more do we have in Christ in the New Covenant than what they had in the Old? How much better is the cleansing of the conscience to serve the living God as opposed to the outward cleansing of the sacrificial system of the Old Covenant? How much better to be compelled by the love of Christ than the promise of blessing for obedience to the law? 

God has blessed us in Christ, and our life is now one of thank you. Thank you, Jesus, for your grace, for your love, for your mercy. I want to live for you. God has poured His love out into my heart. He has changed me on the inside, and now it is my deepest desire to live for him. And not only has He changed me on the inside, caused me to die to sin and law and death and rise to new life in Christ, but He has also empowered me by His own life in me to live for Him. 

We've seen why we can live a new life. Now let's explore how it is God intends to work out this fruit in our lives. Ephesians 1, verse 15, there are a couple of prayers in Ephesians that are really instrumental in understanding this. Ephesians 1:15 is the first prayer of Paul for the saints in Ephesus. He’s just completed this amazing, lofty description of who we are and what we have in Christ. 

In verse 15, he says, "Therefore, I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him—the eyes of your understanding being enlightened—that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints." 

Now look at verse 19: "And what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe according to the working of His mighty power, which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places?" Can you imagine that? The very power of God that raised Jesus from the dead and seated Him at His right hand is the same power that’s at work in you to accomplish His will and purpose. This is something profound and amazing. 

Now look at Ephesians 3:14, the second prayer of Paul: "For this reason, I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory..." We’ve talked about what that means, according to His riches, "to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man." That’s what it means to live by the Spirit and not by the letter. He’s going to strengthen you by His Spirit in your inner man in order that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, that you being rooted and grounded in love may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height—to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen. 

Do you want glory to God in your life? Do you want glory to God in the church? How feeble and foolish our attempts to live in our own strength by trying to keep some external law. God has placed His Holy Spirit in us. He imparts strength to our inner man as we abide in Him by faith. Jesus lives in us. He has come and has settled down and at home in me to live His life out through me. 

It is God who can do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think according to the power that works in us—God’s power, the life of Jesus, the power of the Holy Spirit—all this for His glory in the church. 

Let's look at Galatians 2:19. Paul explains this in Galatians 2:19 as well. He says, "For I through the law died to the law in order that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. In the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." 

Paul’s talking about holy, righteous living. It cannot come through the law, but only by the grace of God, by Christ’s life in us as we abide in Him by faith. This is the battle of the Christian life. The battle is in the mind. We walk in the flesh, but we do not war according to the flesh. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ—every thought. 

How do we do that? Well, sin still dwells in us. We’re not regenerated in our mind, our soul, and body—only our spirit has been made new, not our mind and emotions. We still battle the external forces of Satan’s world system in which we live, coming in on us, influencing our thinking. So where’s the battle? James says in chapter 1 that an emotion, a thought rises up in us—a temptation—and it is in the mind where the battle's won. 

And my friends, the battle is truth versus error. Will you believe your emotions, your experience? Will you believe the world? Or will you reckon what God says to be true? Paul says you have to know it first. Do you know it? Did you know that you're dead to sin and no longer live in it? Did you know that you're dead to the law, cannot live by it? Did you know the very life of God and His might and power live and work in you to accomplish His will and purpose? You must first know the truth of the Word of God, what He says about who you are, and this is why you must be continually renewing your minds to His Word, letting the Word of Christ dwell in us richly, affirming who we are and what we have in Christ. 

And so when this temptation rises in your mind, you must take it captive to the truth of Christ, of God's Word, and you must look to Jesus for strength and power to do what is right. This is so practical, my friends. I decided not to pick on my wife this morning. Let’s say you’re having trouble with a co-worker, and they’re really getting under your skin. 

And they say some critical thing to you, and your emotions come up—you’re tempted to strike back with your words or your actions, and that thought, that temptation is in your mind pulling at you. You can feel it, right? You go to the law? Can the law deliver you from this temptation? No; you must reckon God’s Word in your mind at that moment. I am dead to sin. I no longer have to live in it. I love this person. I want them to be saved, right? I’ve been praying for them. I’ve been looking for an opportunity to be a witness to them. Help me, Jesus. Help me, Jesus, to love them and do what is right. You know all that can go on in your mind in an instant? 

Or something else can go on in your mind, too, right? And you can rationalize, and you can conceive that sin in your mind, like James says, like a woman conceiving a baby. And when it’s conceived, it will give birth out through your members. If your mind is so saturated with the Word of God, if you are walking in the Spirit as a rule of life, if you are in fellowship and prayer and seeking opportunity to witness to such a person, praying for them, and if in the moment of temptation you reckon what God says is true and look to Jesus for help, I can’t tell you how many times, usually when someone comes to me and they say, "I need to talk to you," or "I’ve got a problem," the first thought in my mind is, "Help me, Jesus! I don’t know anything. I don’t know how to help. I’m working through this myself." 

Help me, Jesus! That’s the mindset—reckoning His Word, looking to Him for help. If you do this, you will not sin in that instance. You will bear the fruit of holiness for the glory of God, and you will be a witness to man. This is true in every circumstance of our life. And this is really the battle of the Christian life. Knowing, reckoning who you are, what you have in Christ, living a life of constant abiding in and dependence on Jesus, recognizing our need for Him, trusting, believing Him—that’s how we live the life. That’s the branch, abiding in the vine. 

Now, just one more passage, and we’ll close and get to our discussion time here. Romans 12:1 to 2, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." 

Well, after spending 11 chapters teaching us all this amazing doctrine, Paul in chapter 12 beseeches us to apply it. And here’s how: he says, based on these truths, the mercies of God, on the doctrines we’ve been discussing, present your bodies a living sacrifice to God. And then he says this: "which is your reasonable service," your "spiritual act of worship." Reasonable is the word "logikos," your logic. And here’s a great key. 

It’s logical for you to live a holy life, to live like a new man in this world. Why? Because you are a new man. You’re not a vile, wretched sinner if you believe Jesus. You don’t have two natures. It’s not who you are. You have sin dwelling in you. That’s not who you are. That’s not your nature. You’re dead to it. You’re no longer controlled by it. You’re a new creation. You’re in Christ. You should expect to live a new life each moment of each day. It’s logical, it’s reasonable, it’s spiritually irrational for you to sin.

Now, the practical applications in verse 2, if you’ve ever been confused about sanctification, if you’ve ever wondered how it is that God intends us to become more like Jesus, Romans 12:2 is a biblical explanation of sanctification. "Do not be conformed by this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Conformed refers to the act of an individual assuming an outward expression, a way of living that does not come from within us, nor is it representative of our inner heart life.

Weiss says the prefix "soon" means that this word refers to being patterned after some definite thing, and here it’s the world, the system, the philosophies of men, the world all around us—influencing us. Paul says, "Stop having your outward behavior be conformed by the world." Here’s how Weiss translates the verse: "Stop assuming an outward expression which is patterned after this world, an expression which does not come from, nor is it representative of what you are in your inner being as a regenerated child of God." Isn’t that wonderful? 

I should live like a new man because I am a new man, by God’s grace and mercy in what he’s done. Paul says, "Rather, we should be being transformed," an ongoing, continuous work in our lives, "be being transformed"—how? "By the renewing of our minds." It’s the word metamorphame, which speaks of the act of a person changing his outward expression. 

We need to change! People sometimes talk about how they get offended; sometimes I get offended when I hear the truth. I need to be offended, right? Because I’m not what I should be. I’m being changed, and if I need to change, I need to know where I’m wrong. So this is an ongoing change in outward expression from that which I have to a different one—an expression which comes from and is representative of my inner being—who I am on the inside. It’s the word used in the transfiguration of Christ when He showed the essence of who He is. 

It’s the outward conforming to the inward reality of who we are, and this really depends on three things. One, we must know who we are in Christ, as we’ve been discussing. Two, we must continually be renewing our minds to this truth and reckoning it to be so. And three, in this, we yield to His power and life in us as we abide in Him by faith. We look to Him, we trust Him, we depend on Him. 

And this is the consistent exhortation of the New Testament. Live like new men because you are new men. Live a life worthy of your calling. Peter says, "Be holy for I am holy." You’ve heard that quoted, right? But we often don’t quote the reason he gives for being holy. He says, "Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit and sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible through the word of God, which lives and abides forever." 

We can be holy because we have been born again. We have purified our souls by believing the truth, the gospel. This is the grounds, the why I should expect to live a holy life. I should be offended when I sin, as God is offended when I sin. So what about sin? How do we deal with sin? How do we counsel a brother or sister in sin? Someone falls into sin; someone’s not living like they should. How do we counsel them? Do we give them the law? Do we tell them don’t do that; it’s bad? God says don’t do that. That’s right; it’s true; the law's right; it is bad; it does offend God. 

Let me tell you something; they’ve got the law down there at the Catholic church too and the Methodist church. What they don’t have is regeneration. What they don’t have is the Holy Spirit. What they don’t have is all these things we’ve been talking about. So I observed in 1 Corinthians 6 that there was some sin in Corinth in the church, and Paul calls those people believers; it’s hard to understand. It included all kinds of vile sin. 

Here’s what Paul told them—this is how he counseled them—who were living in sin that we can’t imagine, I think. "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals and sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus by the Spirit of our God." 

"Such were some of you"—doesn’t say "such are some of you," "such were some of you," but you were washed, regenerated. You are not who you were; so don’t act like who you were, but act like who you are. It is your reasonable service. This is his counsel to them, and he goes on in that chapter to remind them that Jesus lives in them, that they were bought at a price, and they should now glorify God because of what He’s done for them. 

You see, my brothers and sisters, we must know who we are and what we have in Christ. We must choose to believe God and reckon it to be so, and we must yield through faith and trust to the power and life of God in us. This is what it means to abide; this is the battle of the Christian life, and my friends, this is God's plan for your sanctification, and this is what really matters for us today at Living Hope Church, for each of us as individuals in our lives. 

Let’s pray. Father, we thank You for your grace. Thank you for the abundant blessings that we have in Jesus, every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies. It’s hard for us to understand, to grasp, to take for ourselves, but I just pray that You’d help us to believe You, to trust what You say in Your word, to dare to take it for ourselves and to live how You intend for us to live, by Your power, by Your life in us, by Your grace through faith. We began by grace through faith. Help us to live by grace through faith—all for Your glory, in Jesus’ name, amen. 

Okay, we were going to have our discussion time now before lunch. So we've covered a massive amount of material over the last couple of months, big topics, broad topics, and then I think just now the most important topic. So do you have questions? 

Yeah, that’s a good question, Kathy. Kathy asked about the clarity of the scriptures that we just went through, being that we now in the New Covenant live by the Spirit, not by the law, and why is it that people still believe they live by the law, and what about the separation of the law into parts, and all those kind of things we see. 

Does anybody have an answer why? I’m just curious what your thoughts are on that. Why? I mean, we could ask a lot of questions, right, that are not, that I think are contrary to scripture—why people believe them or why people practice them. But any thoughts on why? 

It seems clear to me, Kathy. I just know from my own experience, I love checklists. I love to know what’s expected of me, how I get there, what I do. And I have a 16-year-old daughter; I’m supposed to be doing checklists for that too. And I’m forced daily to consider how to parent, how to parent in grace. What do you do with the law? What do you do with, you should do this? 

So, you know, that really comes out to me. I have children. I’ve got up to age 31 children. And living all kinds of different lifestyles, making all kinds of different decisions. And how do I love them a lot? How do I love them now? Well, those questions are too hard. I don’t know what people expected of me. 

Well, I think you bring up one important point. Diane's talking about wanting to have a checklist, wanting to be able to say, "I did this, this, and this, so I'm in good shape," right? And I think that’s one answer, Kathy, is we have this great tendency in us to go to the law, to stand on our own two feet, to accomplish a certain number of tasks or whatever, and then feel good about ourselves. So I think that’s one answer. 

Ricky, you have something to say? I think what I'm going to do is continuity versus discontinuity in different estimates. I don't know if that's a good way to put it, but I think continuity versus discontinuity in that case.

All right, so Ricky brings up a second reason. So one, we as men have a tendency. Second reason would be theological, right? And this is why we’ve done everything we’ve done in this study, is because we believe that there is a discontinuity between the old and the new, that there is a difference, as we’ve been highlighting, between how Israel lived under the old covenant and what God was doing there and what’s going on now in the church. 

So it can be theological, and that can have a couple facets. One can be that you’ve studied the scriptures and you’ve come to those convictions, and you believe that whole different—I like to think of it as a skeleton of the whole of the scriptures on which we hang the flesh, right? That would be a covenant perspective, where there’s continuity, that there was a covenant with Adam, the covenant of works. 

When he broke that covenant, the covenant of grace began, and everything else is under the covenant of grace all the way through eternity. So the law is under the covenant of grace, and Israel is the church. That’s why, just as an interesting illustration, I think, because I had this question; that’s why Presbyterians baptize their babies, because they see a continuity in reform. 

Reformed doctrine is covenant doctrine, okay? It’s separate from, like, Calvinism proper. But they see this continuity. So they see the church in Israel, and they were born into that church, and they were circumcised to get into that covenant. So now, seeing this continuity in the new covenant, they believe that children are born into the covenant and that they’re baptized to get in, okay? They’re born. 

So children of the elect, like an R.C. Sproul would say, are elect. So in other words, those children can be baptized to enter the covenant. So then they would see the church as made up of a community of believers and unbelievers, just like Israel. So they baptize your baby, and they may or may not come to faith later, as the New Geneva Study Bible says, but they’re part of the covenant. They’re covenant people. 

So they come to those conclusions because of their broad understanding of the redemptive plan of God and how it unfolds in the Scriptures. So those would be the two basic pictures: either a covenant or dispensational kind of framework. So the second answer to your question, Kathy, is it can be theological, and that can be a matter of personal conviction from study of the Scriptures, or it can be, "I was born in that system and raised in that system," or "I’ve spent a lot of time listening to those kind of teachers and reading those kind of books, and I’ve been persuaded to this position." 

Either way. Okay. Amen to that, brother, right? So Josh says basically we always know better than God does. So 1 Corinthians 10, where he says at the end of that passage, "Are we stronger than He?" You can’t have fellowship with a table of demons and all that stuff’s going on—or do we provoke Him to jealousy? Are we stronger than He? I always think of that passage in that regard. And that’s a great question for us. 

And I believe in that covenant-dispensational discussion, obviously, that that covenant perspective just does not match up with the Scriptures. I don’t believe there are unbelievers in the Church. I believe everyone who’s in the Church has the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe we enter the Church through infant baptism. 

So I mean, all kinds of things we’ve talked about. So I just don’t believe it lines up with the Scriptures. So for me, it’s a matter of—and this comes down to, I don’t mean to set up straw men in any way, shape, or form, and I have a lot of men that I love and appreciate who hold differing opinions. But in my mind, it really comes down to taking God’s word seriously. 

And by that, I mean a passage like Ezekiel 40 to 48. You know, David asked that question a few weeks ago, and I thought, "Oh, Lord, I don’t want that question." All right, what about the animal sacrifices in the Millennial Temple? Okay, let me answer that real quick. 

But it’s there, and it’s literal language. In Revelation 20, Satan will be bound for 1,000 years. And at the end of those 1,000 years, he will be released! Man, it’s hard to spiritualize that, but they do because there is no kingdom, right? Amillennial, no millennial kingdom. And they say the kingdom is now, and Satan is bound now. He was bound at the cross. And that’s their explanation of Revelation 20. 

I got a hard time with that. And they would say, in fairness to them, that he was bound in the sense that he was defeated. I'm just saying that in my opinion, if we’re going to take the Scriptures naturally—in all these passages we've looked at, think of Joel 2:28 to the end of 3. Think of Zechariah 12 to 14. Think of Malachi 3. Think of Hosea. If we’re going to take those passages naturally, think about how the people of those times would have understood those Scriptures. 

Then we can’t come to that conclusion. We have to do something with those texts and say, "Well, this is just an ideal that’s manifest in the church age. It’s not a literal promise of a kingdom or blessing to the nation; it’s just spiritually fulfilled in the church." You can do that. 

So third answer, it’s a tendency of man, it’s theological, and it’s a reluctance to believe God and trust what He says. Maybe it’s too much for us to take. I would say a fourth answer to your question is, I don’t know what words to use for this, but a selfish, a self-focus. So you think about that in application, like your background, Kathy, in the word-faith thing. 

So then you can set up some standard, right? And if I do that good enough, then God will bless me. That’s kind of the way it went, wasn’t it? I mean, if you pray hard enough or you believe hard enough or you speak it into those kind of things, then I’m going to get something, which is one thing I appreciate about the Reformed community—is a great focus on the glory of God, right? The holiness of God, the glory of God. 

I just think the way they teach to live, you can’t get there by the law as a rule of life. Anybody else have an answer for that? Bobby? Okay. So the whole world system, Bobby’s saying, is set up in kind of a works-benefit or punishment. So the whole world system's working towards that too. 

And I want to be clear; our life should be consistent with the law of God, right? I mean, because it’s representative of His character and nature. So we’re going to find—it’s not like we’re going to be thieves and murderers—it’s just the question is how do we have that holiness produced through our lives is the question. And who am I? If the consistent exhortation of the New Testament is, "Be who you are," then it’s important to know who you are. 

And if you think you’re a vile, wretched sinner, or you’re half sinner and half saint, then what should you expect from your daily living, right? Not holiness as a rule. So those things are important. 

Right. And that’s kind of what we’ve been driving at, is the means that God intends for producing love as it were, as fulfillment of the whole law. And this is the command of Christ in the New Covenant—1 John 3:23 and 24—to believe Jesus and love one another. So how do I get to that? Do I get to that by the Ten Commandments on my refrigerator and checking off the list like Diane was saying, or do I get to that by an abiding relationship with Christ whereby He produces that fruit through me? 

Yeah. So that’s very good, Jane, thanks. Okay, any other questions or more discussion on that? John? Yup? You said something to me like, "Oh, we need to lie to ourselves every day," but that really doesn’t make sense. Christ died, and we are in crisis. Not only did He die, but we died. 

And I would point to—this is one of my great frustrations. I would point to Colossians 3 and Ephesians 4. And in Colossians 3, verse 9, he says, "Do not lie to one another, because you have put off the old man," that’s aorist tense there, speaking of a one-time event. "You have put off the old man. You have put on the new man," and then he uses the present tense: "You’re being renewed in the spirit of the image of Him who created you." 

Okay? Same thing in Ephesians 4, in 17 he begins that we should no longer live as the rest of the Gentiles live, and he explains that "you have put off the old man, you have put on the new man," and that same idea, present tense, in the middle of that, "you’re being renewed in the spirit of your mind." 

So I think those passages are very clear that we do not need to die; we have died. We do not need to put off the old man; we have put off the old man. So again, it changes—somehow there’s confusion, and it changes the focus of the battle you’re trying to win. See what I mean? 

This is why it matters that we understand the battle, because if I’m all day long trying to kill the old man, whatever that means to me, then I’m not doing—I think it’s abundantly clear in Colossians and Ephesians that that’s a done deal. And Romans 6 as well. 

Yeah. Yeah, Josh. Yes, and something we should be really clear about. I talked to him about that, by the way. So Josh asked about kind of a sinless perfection doctrine, and there are those who preach that, right? I want to be clear right up front, that’s not what we’re preaching here. 

My understanding in talking to him about that was—he was, and I don’t know, I just know very brief details—but the particular situation he brought up to me was a pastor who was really heavy on a free grace kind of message from his perspective, meaning the pastor said to him, "It doesn’t matter how you live, it doesn’t matter what you do, if you’re saved, then you’re saved, and you can be the devil, and you’re still saved." 

And I understand the sentiment, right? So that’s why you need some clarification there, because we believe if you’re saved, you’re saved. But what did we read? I think the answer to your question is Romans 6:2, in understanding what it means that we died to sin, as opposed to the principle or law of sin, and dwelling sin is a biblical language, being eradicated from us. 

We died to sin, but sin is still there. And I’m not regenerated, like I said before, in my mind and emotions and how I think, and so I still have a struggle and a battle, and I still live in this world, and sin is still influencing me in the world. So that requires something in the way of struggle in order for me to be continually living wholly, being conformed to Christ. 

I think that’s the argument. And therefore, then I need to figure out what that something is—that battle is. But to say there’s no battle is a dangerous thing, I think. And I’ve known people who have followed people who taught sinless perfection, and it almost becomes back to a law thing. 

And I knew a young lady, I worked with her husband, and they’re wonderful Christian people, six little kids, and she was following a guy, and she had— I mean, she was doing all the things and trying and wanting and serving her husband and taking care of her kids and homeschooling, and one evening she flew off the handle and screamed at her husband, right? She just was overwhelmed. She didn’t come out of her room for two days because she’d failed, and she was supposed to be perfect. 

So important to be clear about those things and what we mean. On the other end of that spectrum would be you’re still a vile, wretched sinner, and you’re going to sin, and it doesn’t matter, and look at Paul, he sinned, and I sinned, and what are we going to do, right? That’s not dealing honestly with the Scriptures. I don’t know if that helps, Josh, but I think the answer is in showing what regeneration is in the spirit, how we still are incarcerated in this flesh and deal with indwelling sin and the world and how we need to fight against that by the things we talked about. 

Dean? Is it your scripture that says there’s no sin in you? Yeah, 1 John. Yeah. Doesn’t it say that at all? Pretty much, Dean. Yeah. Good. But isn’t it in that battle—that sin? Absolutely. In the world of sin? Mm-hmm. Drawing the proof of that. Mm-hmm. That’s what James did. Right. In his Bible? He’s working that out. 

Yeah. No, absolutely, Jane. That’s the process of sanctification. We’ve been talking about it. It is a process that begins with justification and ends with glorification, and we need to understand why we can live that new life, like we talked about, and how God intends for us to do that. To me, that’s the emphasis of preaching and teaching in the whole New Testament and what’s directly applicable to us. 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. 

So, yeah, Ricky, we ought to, just to wrap this up, what I’ve been driving at. Is it possible that we can, in our own flesh, be believing—sin is really to lie about God, right? And I think the ones who follow that way—Ricky’s really taking back to that viewpoint of saying we can believe all these things that are not true. This is why I said earlier that one of my great challenges in sanctification, and it’s ironic that I’ve taught about it for so many years—and I dealt with that man when he was ungracious, trying to make him become holy, but I think sometimes my biggest challenge is to make sure that my understanding of the Gospel is based on the New Covenant and not just rooted in things I can experience or read in here, like you mentioned, the encouraging enthusiasm, both excitement and uncertainty where we’re living.

Hebrews lays that out there—carry one another in prayer—rejoice, grieve, when someone’s having trouble. And so, yes, you live in a marriage or relationship with someone starting to go crazy. If you don’t pray specifically for them, the roots of bitterness just spring up, right? Such thing will end up on to false teachings, and near-works, and other deceitful things, see? The kind of things my wife is bombarded with—the lies are traced back about you’ll never be good enough. You don’t temper success. You don’t have to do those things.

What’s so vital in our evangelical communities is to come around people. God’s always going to bring more than you think of. Perhaps God’s will is higher and fuller than we recognize in ourselves, so if we can cultivate the kind of culture that encourages us to trust that God will bring about these things—like Baker said earlier as we closed some of these issues—it’s not striving to achieve. It is to realize God’s glory—is to see the beauty and all of this—to hope in ego—to believe in an ever-deepening sense.

We’re here in 2025 and His grace will lead us on to overcome all the challenges that may arise in anybody’s heart over the next five, ten years. I’m confident that if we strive, knowing among ourselves that sometimes it all sounds good, we’re going to continue bearing fruit for the kingdom. 

That’s how I am, believe me, too. 

The nature of the love that comes through Christ and His grace isn’t supposed, ultimately, to offend me, peddle me, lie to me, or deceive me. It’s what you give it together in new growth as a church family to continue supporting one another in those things across home, family, and all the sectors of our lives. 

So I very much appreciate in our organization of time together, the volume of connections that we have, and what we will face next. God truly is grace and sufficient for all we need. 

Amen.