Okay, questions, comments, clarifications on the doctrine of sanctification? I'll see if I can get this clear enough in my question. 

So, am I understanding that basically justification, regeneration, and sanctification are basically simultaneous? They are simultaneous in time at the point of faith, yeah. But they're distinct for our understanding. 

And because in the previous religious forum that I grew up in, what you just said was so interesting about our struggle now is to continue belief. But the struggle before I was always kind of taught was to remain good enough. So it's a kind of a paradigm shift in thinking, even though I kind of knew that, but you explained it in such a good way that now, because it seems to me that when you grow up in those systems, that it's very, very hard to get that out of your head. 

Even way in the back of your head, when something tells you that you're saved by faith, by grace through faith, that you cannot really believe that. So that little teeny kernel kind of doesn't go away. So anyway, just thank you. 

And I think that's human nature as well, right? We always want to do something, we want to have a list to check off, and then we can feel good. But in the Catholic system, the reason that that's the case is it's a legalistic religion. So it's by law. So you're trying to keep the law to be good enough to earn God's favor. 

And that's what I would call a progressive justification. So in other words, I never know I'm justified, right? I've told you that before, but I remember the first time I ever read 1 John 5, 13, "I write you these things that you may know that you have eternal life." And I thought, right when I read it, St. John is teaching the sin of presumption, right? Because that's what I was told when I was a kid. If you said you knew that you were saved, then you were damned to hell. Because you could never know, because you were in a progressive justification trying to earn your way to heaven. 

And that's false religion versus biblical Christianity and salvation. 

Yeah, good question. But that is something that's difficult for us to... it's difficult to believe. It's difficult to believe what God says. So I'm doing a study with a group of young ladies, and we're camped in the book of Colossians. 

And so much of 3 talks about exactly what you were just saying. In the midst of that, there are these two, well actually, yeah, two quite opposing lists starting at verse 5, "Therefore put to death." And then "put off all of these," anger and wrath and malice. And then starting in 12, "Therefore beloved put on," and then there's this whole list of putting on. 

This list of taking off, this list of putting on. Actions, right? 

Yeah, they're actions. Read verse 9. "Do not lie to one another." Okay, so stop for a second. "Do not lie to one another." That's one of the Ten Commandments, right? Do not lie. What's he say next? "Since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of him who created him." 

So this, those verses you just read are what we quoted before, Aris tense, you have put off the old man, you have put on, you died, right? That's what he says. 

So do not lie to one another because you died, because you have put off the old man, you have put on the new man, and then in that, in the middle, in my translation is, "you're being renewed in the spirit of your mind." That's present tense. 

So this is an ongoing thing in the Christian's life, is I'm being renewed in my mind to these truths. But I have put off the old man, I have put on the new man. So basically what Paul's saying in that surrounding context that you were alluding to, is these things are not consistent with who you are. These things are consistent with who you are, and that's why the chapter starts with setting your mind on things above, for you died and your life is hidden with Christ and God. 

Further to 1 Corinthians 6, 9-11, he lists those horrible things of sodomy and pedophilia and all kinds of bad things there, and then he says, "such were some of you," right? And then later he says, "Don't join yourself to a harlot, you join Christ, don't you know that Christ is in you? Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit." 

So it's not that there aren't commands given, or imperatives, but the imperatives in the new creation, in the new covenant, the imperatives are always based on the indicative. So the reason why I cannot lie, because you go down to the Catholic church where Mary used to sit, and they'll tell you don't lie. What power do they have not to lie? 

Maybe some sort of social or societal constraint, you know, maybe that would keep them from lying at some point. But they have the command, but they don't have any basis for living it out. 

Which is regeneration, the new birth, right? You died. So what he's saying there is, these are things that are not consistent with who you are, these are things that are consistent with who you are because you died with Christ and you put off the old man, you put on the new man, you are a new creation. Just what we've been talking about this morning. 

This is who you are now, so this is how you should live. 

Yeah, in our discussion, the point we kind of came to is, here's a list of the things that if you've fallen, if you're leaning into these, you're forgetting who you are. And to go back and reestablish your identity in Christ. 

And that this other list, if you find yourself leaning into these things, that's a good thing. It's like, okay, you're on track, you're remembering who you are, you're operating out of your identity. So the law, do not lie, won't give you any power to not lie. But the basis of your death with Christ and the new creation and the truth that this is who you are and renewing your mind to that will bear fruit of holiness, righteousness, telling the truth. 

I loved at the end of chapter three where it says, you know, all these things that look like they would have value are of no value. 

No value against the flesh, right? 

Yeah. 

Okay, cool. 

Yeah. 

It's good. I just had a question about in the very beginning of the sermon, you said that there were these two different things that some people believe and it makes them get confused. And I heard you say the first one was about putting on the man, taking off the man, putting back. And I was still wrapping my head around that concept and I missed the second one. 

So I was just wondering if you could just restate the two main things. 

I think the second one I mentioned there was that the moral law was binding on the believer as a means of holiness. So in other words, I need to look to the Ten Commandments in order to have holiness in my life or I need to look to the law. 

Okay. I can look at my notes real quick. I don't remember if there was... I must be beyond it. 

Well, we talked about the two natures view and the law as well. We talked about putting off the old man, putting on the new man, kind of the idea that I'm still a sinner. We talked about that as well. So those are the kind of things that I think are commonly taught. 

Now let me just say this, something like the two natures view, I think the intent is good there trying to explain the fact that believers still have indwelling sin. But to say that's our nature or that we're somehow in Adam and in Christ is to totally confuse the whole point of why we can live a new life as Paul lays out in Romans 6. So I'm not trying to be critical of people who try and explain it that way. I'm just saying those kinds of teachings undermine. 

It's very difficult for us to hold on to this in our mind and to believe what God says. And when you have false teaching or confusing ideas, it makes it that much harder to... 

To me, as I'm listening to this, I've heard so many different aspects of the teachings on sanctification from some very different perspectives. It kind of reminds me of the difference that Christians have with Mormons, Seventh-day Adventists, or not Seventh-day Adventists as much, but like with Jehovah's Witnesses where we may be talking about Jesus, but we're not talking about the same Jesus. 

And sanctification, it seems to me, is often... I think one of the confusions as I'm thinking about it that I've heard so much is that we're not always talking about the same thing. We're using the same word. 

But there's such a big difference between our sanctification bringing us in alignment with who we are in Christ as opposed to others who may be speaking about sanctification as a means to becoming like Christ in order to accomplish something, not as a response to something. 

Right. Would that... Is that correct? 

Yeah, I think whenever you're pointing back to works or law, and that can be a very subtle thing in our mind, then you're losing your grip on grace and faith, and only by grace and faith are we going to see holiness fruit in our lives. 

You know, some thoughts came to me. The difference between God's religion is Jesus Christ, I am the way and the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me, and man's religion, which all have something all in common, and that's a progressive justification. 

And the extreme of that, you mentioned Catholicism, there's different things, legalism, baptism, but the extreme form of that, if you look and you get it in your mind, is that man's religion, Islam, because you never know you're going to be good enough to have the favor of Allah, so you have to keep murdering people or whatever until you can get to that point where you still are thinking, well, am I going to get the, as a man, get the 70 virgins or not? 

And so even Muhammad, the founder of that religion, said, well, you never really know. So is that the way we want to go back to something, that sort of a religion like Islam or the Old Testament? I mean, do you want to put your faith in how good I did today on keeping all those Ten Commandments? 

Right. I mean, really? But in the church, though, Don, for us, so often the thought is, if I've been doing good, if I'm looking at myself and my works, I've been pretty nice to my wife this week, then God's happy with me. Or if I screwed up and said something bad, then God's mad at me. 

And that whole focus on self and works and performance, it can't, fruit can't be produced that way. It has to be a focus on Jesus and His grace and His mercy and believing His word. 

And it comes down to that because, you know, we want to, you know, we need to look to Jesus and the eternal things. I mean, that is our example. And as a human being, Paul, and yet Paul said, you know, to live is Christ and to die is gain. And he said, I want to preach nothing except Christ, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 

Because now the problem I have, and maybe many people do, when I think about the cross and Jesus, like we mentioned in the elder study, I think that I'm there, the Roman soldier, putting the nails in Christ to crucify Him, and I don't get my mind renewed and wrapped around the fact that I went up on the cross with Him that day, spiritually. 

So that's it. 

Right. Amen. 

Yeah. And I think that's maybe the greatest lacking. This is what I was getting at in the teaching on justification and regeneration. What you will hear most often in the church, at least my experience broadly, is that that Roman 6 stuff is just positional. 

In other words, they don't emphasize our death. They don't emphasize our new creation, our new life. They just make that positional in Christ. And our death, our crucifixion is not preached as important as it is for understanding then why we can live the Christian life. 

Okay, I'll try to make this straight. You talked about three stages of sanctification? Did I? 

Like the positional. 

Okay. Okay, yes. Our conversion, which is declared holy. 

Yes. I think the important part, as I studied that more, is the idea that we are set apart for God's purposes, like the items in the temple or something. 

At conversion. 

Yes, at conversion, yes. And then you talked about the positional, which is, or progressive, which is being made holy. 

Yeah, and what I hope to make clear on that is that's one of those loaded terms, I think, because it brings in all these erroneous things we've been talking about. So I think it's better to focus on, or have the idea in our mind, to think of it this way, that I am just as equipped or able, by God's grace and because of what He's done in me, to live holy today as I will be in 10 years. 

It's an ongoing process. 

Well, the process is in, I believe, knowing Him and believing Him. That's the growing. And that cannot be done without the Holy Spirit and the Word being united. 

Absolutely. That's the means. You bet. So that's really important to know that that is what unites you, the Word and the Holy Spirit. 

Absolutely. To have that conviction. 

And to produce that righteousness. And produce the fruit, because you can't produce the fruit without one or the other. Like sometimes we'll think, I need to love more, but I don't need to love more because love is the fruit of the Spirit. 

I need to believe more. I need to know better what God says is true and depend on the Holy Spirit. And read the Word and know that the Holy Spirit is living inside you. And then we have that complete, that ultimate sanctification, which hasn't happened yet. 

But it's going to be that complete sanctification of eternity. Glorification, you're referring to. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. So, I don't know. One of my questions is, I understand it, but it's like, what if you did not do, you knew that the Holy Spirit was in you, but you didn't read the Word? 

I mean, would you just not have the fruit, but you'd still have the complete? 

You would still, it wouldn't change who you are. 

Right. 

Right. I said from Ms. Pulpit, many, many years ago, one time we were in 1 Corinthians 6, and he says, "adulterers" is in that list. And I said, if a Christian, a born again believer, commits adultery, which can happen, right? They're not an adulterer. 

That act is completely, and by the way, that got me into a couple meetings. But that act is contrary to who they are, which is Paul's whole point in 1 Corinthians 6, 9 to 11. So it doesn't change one iota who I am. 

Now see, the thing that brings confusion to this is not understanding the nature of the salvation Christ provides. So then we have a lot of Christians who are unsure about eternal security or unsure about, and then I might do something, or I might quit believing, or I might, and if you're kind of mired in all that kind of thinking, then it's hard to get to this next step, right? 

That has to be settled. I'm not, I want more than anything to live holy, to be a witness, to bring glory to God. That's what I want, right? God put that desire in me. 

But in order for that to be a reality, according to what God says, it has to be by focusing on Him, knowing Him through His Word, and choosing to believe Him. 

And so I have to say, I don't struggle with assurance of my salvation. You know what I mean? Not that you wouldn't ever, but what I'm saying is, the only way you struggle with assurance of salvation would be if you are dependent on the level of your performance to give you that assurance. 

You're keeping a law, or your works, or whatever. That shouldn't be the way we're thinking, right? I believe Him. I trust Him. Now, what's He say is true, and how is it He's going to produce it? 

Where's the battle at? The battle's in believing, and knowing Him. That make sense? 

Yeah. 

I'd like to echo, kind of on Wanda, but more with what even Mary said, and I think at a younger age, we get ingrained with, especially if we're not in a true Bible-believing church, we get ingrained with so many of these wrong theologies, that I think sometimes I don't even realize is still hanging there until I'm reading the Word, and it's like this contradicts what I really believe, and kind of like how Mary said that, it kind of trips me up sometimes before I ever even realize that I'm stumbling. 

But I think the important thing, and I'll read this back in Galatians 3, "Oh foolish Galatians who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed, among you is crucified. This only I want to learn from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish, having begun in the Spirit? Are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" 

And as I read that in some of the other passages you read today, it's like I'm kind of taken back to, as a kid, just an illustration, went to church almost every Sunday, but it was a Lutheran church, and I mean, I'm ingrained with all this legalism, and I look at it now as just absolute craziness, but our Bibles laid in the back of our old station wagon, and we had to drive a gravel road to get to church, so when we got to church on Sundays, to find our Bibles, they were all dusty because of the gravel road and things, so we're trying to clean those things off so we can get in there and look like we've had our Bibles open during the week, you know, because that was extra points if you'd read your Bible. 

See, we didn't have that problem. We had a big Bible on the coffee table, and nobody was allowed to touch it. 

I had one of those too. 

Anyway, with all this, and I think I just appreciate how you brought a lot of that out today even, and we are who we are in Christ, only by faith, but I would just encourage everybody, especially the young people, don't leave those Bibles laying in the car, and get into Bible studies. 

These Bible studies that we've got going on here at this church just encourage me so much because it gives you a different perspective. 

It's the time of kind of doing what we're doing right now, and just sometimes we're just not believing the right things, but one way we're going to believe the right things is by taking ownership and reading it for ourselves, but have somebody else kind of give their input too, and it sparks, just like what Mary said, those old things. 

That's not true. We've got to get rid of that and believe everything you've said today. So thank you, John. 

I appreciate it. 

Thank you. 

Okay. Anything else? Where does grace tip into licentiousness? 

Well, this is a good question, and I wrestled with that in preparing for this message quite a bit because I don't want to get, I was telling Bobby, it's like sometimes there's some kind of error in the church, and you're so averse to that that you end up on the other side of the truth, you know what I mean? 

So I was studying, Mark and I were talking, Michael and I were talking, but studying the word sanctification, sanctified, and what that means, and I don't, I think the way we went through it this morning and looking at those different usages is biblical, is right, but I don't want to get to a point in my rejection of all that, like we need to earn something or God still has to do something to give it, to a point where I'm like, it doesn't matter, my sin doesn't matter, right? 

Not that anybody's saying that here, but I'm just saying sin does matter, and the whole point of this is I want to live a holy life. So I think licentiousness is a problem with desire. 

I just can't imagine thinking licentious thoughts, you know what I mean? Like I'm going to, I've got God's grace so I can just do whatever I want. 

I just don't know how that fits. I think there's deeper problems if that's the way we think. 

And again, that comes back to reckoning what God says is true, because what has he said? He said he's poured his love out into your heart, by the Holy Spirit who's given to us. He says you love the brethren. John says you love God, right? He's given us that desire, he talks about desire a lot. 

So maybe we can get messed up in our thinking and get off track a little bit on occasion, but to use God's grace as a license, I guess that's just not, I feel like that's in some sub-gospel thing. It's not, because the true gospel makes you want to live for him, right? 

And want to be holy. So then licentiousness shouldn't as a rule be an issue, it's more about what is, I need to know then what is God's means for that holiness to be worked out in my life. 

And that's what I think is the paramount question. I hear you, I just, I have some people in my life that are head scratchers. I scratch my head, it doesn't make sense, I can't, I just can't make sense of it. 

Yeah, I would be concerned about people who would articulate ideas like that. I mean, it's a misunderstanding of grace. 

I guess the thing to do is to go back and look at what Paul says, because Paul was accused of being antinomian, right? Paul was accused of licentiousness. That's why I think in Romans 6.1 he says, "What shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" By no means, right? 

How can you who died to sin live any longer in it? You can't, is what he's saying, right? Because you've been so fundamentally transformed in the essence of who you are, there has to be a change outwardly. 

We can't continue in sin like we did in Adam. So it's a misunderstanding of grace. Maybe those passages would be good to go through and teach on what he means by that. 

Anything else? 

All right. Anything else? Just one thing here. We talked about it, and I've heard it mentioned a couple of times, the putting off the old man and putting on the new man. 

And I know that a lot of our translations have it in the present tense. But in the original language it's in the aorist tense, which means it's something that was done once in the past. You have put off the old man. You have put on the new man. 

It's not something that you're doing every day. You did it when you came to Christ and you were baptized into his death, burial, and resurrection. 

Right. Just like we died. Romans 6, 2, they're the same thing. 

All right. Well, thank you for the discussion and your attention and think on these things and get your word. All right. Have a good day.